Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Ok, Heres what I have and I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.
1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD.
2.0 Liter turbo stock except for a cold-air intake
Just bought the car 1.5 months ago.
Car ran great except for if you shut the car off after driving it around, The ide would seem to "stick" at 1500-2500 rpms. I planned on lubricating the throttle body but have not yet gotten that far. PLaying with the throttle lever seemed to allow the ide to return to normal.

A couple days ago I drove to a customers house to fix her computer and when I shut off the car it was running fine. When I left, ( about 1.5 hours later) the engine was still pretty warm. However when I started the car it ran very rough and the upper engine seemed excessively noisy. I had it running for about 30 seconds before I shut it off. I called my wife to let her know the "new" car might not make it all the way home. I restarted it (Oil gauge showed good pressure, yes factory gauge,idiot light not on) and began to turn around to leave and after about 30 seconds it dies. I attempt to restart and it is starting very hard (noisy upper engine present for remainder of story). Once started I can rev up the engine and seconds later ---- engine dies. Rinse repeat untill cows come home.

I see no disconnected Wires or vacuum lines. No melted or otherwise damaged wires. No damaged engine components.

I left car there and got my truck and a tow dolly. Mounted it up and drove 10 feet before I realised "Duh, AWD Dude. This won't work!" Put car back on ground and called wife to bring me a Car trailer with her van. I drive 1/2 way back to rental place waiting for my wife to arrive. Eat crappy fast food breakfast. Wife calls, No good. Van too low with trailer attached. Great, I drive back leave Dolly get trailer heading back, wife calls. She wants to go with to spend time together, GRRRRRR fine.... Wife and kids pile in with Crappy fast food lunch. Noisy kids, heavy trailer Truck sucking down more gas.... get back to my talon and start getting car onto the trailer. Kid gets sick in truck from headache/nausea (likely from crappy fast food) Smallest must pee, Sweating butt off using come-along to pull talon onto trailer watching front bumper scrape ramps on the way up. My wife was really good at steering it on and keeping the car from rolling back down when I had to adjust come-along. Finally after each kid and wife goes to bathroom at this customers house (Very gracious, very nice. Made me a BLT night before wile I waited for my wife to arrive). One more stop at gas station for gas and migrane medicine for sick child. Everyone making nose long trip back to town.

Stopped at Auto part store to borrow code scanner to see if there is any help. Car has generic OBD II connector, scanner wouldn't connect unless I used Chrysler specific connector (wich the car does not have) Stopped at chrysler dealer ask for help. Got the sorry buddy routine. Take it to two other places hoping someone will help me get codes. Didn't happen. Put car in my driveway and did the following:

Plug wires tested good
plug wires pulgged in (both ends)
pulled Valve cover off to look at cams, No visual problems. (crakned engine and there is very good Oil going to upper engine) (Mobil 1 synthetic)
Timing belt changed in 2001 (was written on cover by mechanic) Belt also visually inspected, no cracks etc... Seems properly tensioned also.

I'm kinda lost, the noise dosen't sound like anything I have heard before (I'm a V-8 guy, yeah I stepped out on a limb.) Does not sound like a rod or main bearing. It could be vaugely a lifter sort of sound but not really. If I ignore the sound, and pretend I don't hear it, I would say the engine is acting like the distributor/ ignition timing is horridly wrong except there is no back-fires etc....

It starts hard if I press on the gas pedal while cranking, revs up then dies. In about 5 seconds. Need some help. I'm practically broke and need a place to start. I would check the fuel pressure if I could find a port, but there dosen't seem to be one on the rail. I've read several threads but none seem to fit with my symptoms.

Thank you for reading my story and thank you for any help you can provide.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Try the Mass AFS

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Wow Bigfatso. Let me take this all in for a minute and I'll see what I can troubleshoot for you.
Check the MAF real quick. It will cause this same issue if it's not connected.
Here's what I'm talking about...
http://members.shaw.ca/dsm.1000q/Engineprimer/2G/Q3.htm
It's inbetween the filter and the red intake pipe. You can see the wires connected to the black box called the MAF.

Welcome to MF too :)

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

If you back out of that page, Bigfatso, you can see what's connected to the motor and how it's supposed to be.
http://members.shaw.ca/dsm.1000q/Eng...sual-index.htm

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html

Make one of those. If you have a big enough leak it'll cause those exact symptoms.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Thanks for the replies. The MAF sensor is connected. I did also check all the connectors to all the sensors I could find and they are all plugged in. All that I could reach I either disconnected and then re-connected or wiggled them to make sure they were seated.
TSG59_Steve --- I will read thru the document and build one and try that. I'm about out of vacation time so it might be a day or two before I can try it. I have to get my festiva running so I won't be spending $600 a month on gas.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

BTW, My 1995 Talon with a 2.0 DOHC. Is it a 1st generation or 2nd generation??? I'm still a bit foggy on that.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

my 98 eclipse GS did something similar and it turned out to just be bad spark plug wires.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

bigfatso, whats ur running is whats called a 2gA... lemme quickly explain... 89-94(correct me on first production date if im wrong) is a 1st gen, 95-96 is the 2gA, completely different change from 1st gen as far as looks alone, also with motors as well, then you have your 97-99 which is your 2gB, same basic body contoures as your 2gA, but with different bumpers and headlights

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

in a situation like this just becuase of the noise this first thing i would check is the timing belt to make sure it didnt jump time or something come apart.
on my car the bearing on the idler pulley just fell apart out of nowhere, it made some noise but not very loud and wouldnt run to save its life becuase of it going out of time.
if you could post a video with good soundwe could help diagnose it better.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

I checked some more under the hood. I found that the tube going from the Cold air intake to the turbo was very loose. I tightened it down after cleaning it off and tried to start it. No joy there. I did however record a couple clips of sound to help diagnose.

www.fixxpc.com/FromWindow.wav

www.fixxpc.com/underhood.wav

I just uploaded them to my site. I used my Phone to record them so the sound quality isn't the greatest. But it does give you the feel for whats happening.
I also checked battery voltage, it was at 12.9V

As far as the timing belt goes, I see two hash marks around the cam sprockets. When I am looking at the engine from the drivers fender both hash marks on the sprockets point up at the same time. All the timing belts I've done you have to point them twards each other ---> <---.
These are both | |. Anyone have a picture of proper camshaft alignment/timing? I know having a cam out of time can cause huge problems.

thanks again for any help.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

timing marks need to be ----> <----- on the cams
and at the zero mark on the crank, as bad of a sound clip as that is i swear it sounds out of time and like the timing belt is rubbing the cover like an idler pulley came apart or the balance shaft belt is tangled up in there.
dont run it anymore, pull the timing cover and inpsect before you end up with bent valves if there is something wrong in there.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Is it possible to install the timing belt with the pullies etc... and end up with the marks Like this | | ? Perhaps the Mechanic that did the timing belt previously? OR do the sprockets/cam sensor ring install one way only? I'm not doubting you. I just want to understand the possible situations I could run into.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

was the crank on the zero mark?
i think some crank pullys have more than one timing mark on them, maybe thats why

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

IF the Camsprockets/sensor ring installs one way only AND the Marks need to be like this ---><--- Knowing the sprockets both turn in the same direction, then the cam timing is out 180 degrees on on cam or 90 degrees on both. Paralell marks will never rotate to point at each other.
|| then // THEN --> --> then || then // then <-- <-- then ||. Looks like I need to find a book with some pictures and dig into it. I hate timing belts.....

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

theres 2 marks on both gears so if theyre both straight up, then you also have 2 straight down, turning 90 degrees they should line up.
if it was that far out of time youd have bent valves and it would never even try to start.
it takes 3 or 4 teeth out to bend valves in these.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

[&o][&o][&o]UPDATE
Timing belt is out of time. I rotated the engine to TDC #1 and I felt/heard a cam slip several teeth.

Its beyond me how it started at all. I'm sure its likely my valves are bent, which sucks. What would be a good vehicle to get a good used head off of? Can I use my cams in another head? Can I put new valves in my head or have the seats and guides likely been damaged also?

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

i think you should try to stick a belt on it ,get itin time then do a compression check before firing it. you never know you mighta got lucky.
i spit the timing belt on my motor at over 6000 RPM and never touched a valve, how it didnt happen i dont know.
all that noise you heard mighta been the valve rattling against the pistons, or maybe not,...
fix it then check it before pulling the head. it makes life alot easier if you get a lucky break.
normally you can get away with just new valves in the head but not always.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

I took some pictures to help verify I am getting ready to use the correct marks.

The crankshaft is the one I'm the most uncertain about. The crankshaft timing gear was damaged by your truly. Please don't ask... I feel foolish enough about it right now. All I have to say is this is still cheaper than paying someone else.

I was also wondering about how to test the tensioner(s) Today the timing belts didn't slip when rotated, and they seem tensioned properly. There is very little deflection on the belt.

Anyone able to verify the timing marks by the pictures I took? I need to get this car back together and the printouts I got don't give me a clear picture of the timing marks.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

I started looking for the plug for the balance shaft on this thing and damned if I can't find it. I have looked on both sides of the engine block. the only thing I have found so far are two tiny plugs twards the top of the block. They both have a + in them for a phillips screw driver. One is very close to the Turbo housing. The other is very close to the alternator. Are these what I"m looking for? The instructions I have don't mention if I'm supposed to be looking on the engine block twards the front of the car or on the rear of the engine twards the firewall. I'm not sure if there is one of these or two I have to do this to.Thanks in advance for anyone who can help, preferably draw me a picture.....

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

I have Figured out how to align the timing marks and get everything back together. I pulled the plugs and did a compression test. Here are the numbers (front left to right, Facing the engine):

100 | 150 | 125 | 150
1 2 34 ( I think thats how they are ordered)

Anyhow if 1 and 3 would both have been 125 Psi. I would feel good enough to drive it. However a 33% drop in pressure from Highest to lowest is too much to be able to explain away with engine wear. Am I correct in the understanding that 1 & 3 travel up and down together? If so, then I would say some valves got smacked around a bit for sure.

Anyone Know where I can get a good used head for a turbo car????

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

1+3 are really low.
Are you sure you did it correctly? Here's a reference..
http://web.archive.org/web/200611061...ompression.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200611180...s/leakdown.htm
I believe it goes 1+4 and 2+3. Something isn't right with your figures bud.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Also, from left to right it goes like this...4-3-2-1.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

It was late and I did only the dry test and didn't pull the MPI fuse. I Cranked the engine 6 times each and did the test twice for each cylinder. It is about 100 degrees outside now and I was soaked from sweating. It was a real pain in the tailpipe getting the auto tensioner adjusted properly without the special DSM tools and I just wanted 30 minutes of Air conditioning before I went to bed. I plan on doing the wet test sunday afternoon when its going to be 4,000 degrees outside. I have an adaptor I can use to pressurize the cylinders, If its quiet enough outside I should be able to hear where the air is escaping.

Again thanks for the inputs.

RE: Barely starts and then dies in 5 Seconds
 

Finally found time to do a "wet" test. cylinder pressures went up across the board. 200 | 200 | 180 | 200. I'm going to order some parts and put it back together.