lifter noise
Thread Starter
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Junior Member
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 27
HunterD,
So you feel this is a failed hydraulic tensioner and not a lifter noise. This is a brand new tensioner with less than 10 minutes on it. This car has been a total nightmare for me.
Thanks,
Steve
So you feel this is a failed hydraulic tensioner and not a lifter noise. This is a brand new tensioner with less than 10 minutes on it. This car has been a total nightmare for me.
Thanks,
Steve
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,045
From: Washington State
Sounds that way to me. Couple of questions:
Does the noise changes/goes away if you bring up RPMs? Failed tensioner would have greatest noise at idle and can almost go away completely with slight increase in RPMs. Lifter noise will just change the frequency.
What kind of oil do you have in the engine?
DId you check oil level?
Have you tried VLA bleeding procedure?
Does the noise changes/goes away if you bring up RPMs? Failed tensioner would have greatest noise at idle and can almost go away completely with slight increase in RPMs. Lifter noise will just change the frequency.
What kind of oil do you have in the engine?
DId you check oil level?
Have you tried VLA bleeding procedure?
Thread Starter
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 27
Sounds that way to me. Couple of questions:
Does the noise changes/goes away if you bring up RPMs? Failed tensioner would have greatest noise at idle and can almost go away completely with slight increase in RPMs. Lifter noise will just change the frequency.
What kind of oil do you have in the engine?
DId you check oil level?
Have you tried VLA bleeding procedure?
Does the noise changes/goes away if you bring up RPMs? Failed tensioner would have greatest noise at idle and can almost go away completely with slight increase in RPMs. Lifter noise will just change the frequency.
What kind of oil do you have in the engine?
DId you check oil level?
Have you tried VLA bleeding procedure?
Here is a little background on this vehicle. It is a 2001 Montero Limited. It had a blown head gasket on the odd bank 1,3,5 passenger side. I replaced both head gaskets and had a local machine shop do the head work. I replaced the water pump, timing belt, idler tensioner pulley, and hydraulic tensioner. I have been working with Larry offline as this vehicle has been a nightmare for me. The noise does seem to go away at higher RPM's I did try the bleeding procedure. I am running 10W30 full synthetic oil. This vehicle is not mine and I am doing the work as a favor. I have over $1200 in parts and machine shop work and cannot return the vehicle with this noise. I also just discovered it has a rusted out brake line above the gas tank to add to the problem list. I will post a video later of the engine at idle and at higher RPM's.
Thanks,
Steve
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,045
From: Washington State
That's a puzzle you got there. The longer video helps, but I'm still not 100% certain if it is lifter noise or tensioner. One thing that is reassuring is that the noise completely quiets down with increased RPMs. That gives me hope no matter which way the trouble lies.
Can you tell if the noise coming from the front of the engine (timing belt area) or from the heads along the engine bank. Is it limited to one site or equal on both banks?
What kind of work did machine shop do on the heads?
I don't doubt your technical ability, but may I ask you for your procedure for tensioning the timing belt.
You can pull the timing belt covers (primarily passenger side) and see if the belt is slack and/or if tensioner wobbles too much.
Other suggestions:
1. Perform Lash Adjuster diagnostics as described in the attached FSM section.
2. Perform VLA bleeding procedure per FSM (you need to do it on warm engine and you may need to repeat it 10-30 times);
3. Change back to 5x30 oil and perform VLA bleeding procedure
4. Check oil pump pressure, especially at idle.
Can you tell if the noise coming from the front of the engine (timing belt area) or from the heads along the engine bank. Is it limited to one site or equal on both banks?
What kind of work did machine shop do on the heads?
I don't doubt your technical ability, but may I ask you for your procedure for tensioning the timing belt.
You can pull the timing belt covers (primarily passenger side) and see if the belt is slack and/or if tensioner wobbles too much.
Other suggestions:
1. Perform Lash Adjuster diagnostics as described in the attached FSM section.
2. Perform VLA bleeding procedure per FSM (you need to do it on warm engine and you may need to repeat it 10-30 times);
3. Change back to 5x30 oil and perform VLA bleeding procedure
4. Check oil pump pressure, especially at idle.
Thread Starter
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 27
That's a puzzle you got there. The longer video helps, but I'm still not 100% certain if it is lifter noise or tensioner. One thing that is reassuring is that the noise completely quiets down with increased RPMs. That gives me hope no matter which way the trouble lies.
Can you tell if the noise coming from the front of the engine (timing belt area) or from the heads along the engine bank. Is it limited to one site or equal on both banks?
What kind of work did machine shop do on the heads?
I don't doubt your technical ability, but may I ask you for your procedure for tensioning the timing belt.
You can pull the timing belt covers (primarily passenger side) and see if the belt is slack and/or if tensioner wobbles too much.
Other suggestions:
1. Perform Lash Adjuster diagnostics as described in the attached FSM section.
2. Perform VLA bleeding procedure per FSM (you need to do it on warm engine and you may need to repeat it 10-30 times);
3. Change back to 5x30 oil and perform VLA bleeding procedure
4. Check oil pump pressure, especially at idle.
Can you tell if the noise coming from the front of the engine (timing belt area) or from the heads along the engine bank. Is it limited to one site or equal on both banks?
What kind of work did machine shop do on the heads?
I don't doubt your technical ability, but may I ask you for your procedure for tensioning the timing belt.
You can pull the timing belt covers (primarily passenger side) and see if the belt is slack and/or if tensioner wobbles too much.
Other suggestions:
1. Perform Lash Adjuster diagnostics as described in the attached FSM section.
2. Perform VLA bleeding procedure per FSM (you need to do it on warm engine and you may need to repeat it 10-30 times);
3. Change back to 5x30 oil and perform VLA bleeding procedure
4. Check oil pump pressure, especially at idle.
To answer your questions above: The noise seems to be louder over the driver side valve cover although it is very hard to pinpoint and sometimes seems from the rear of the engine too. A friend let me borrow his automotive headset and it was still hard to locate the noise it just seemed to be all over. I know not much help.
The machine shop check the heads for cracks and pressure checked them, machined them true, check the valve for true and reseated them. replaced cam and valve seals. and installed 24 new valve lifters which I supplied them AJUSA brand lifters.
I followed the timing belt install from ALLDATA and from the directions on this forum. I used the proper tool to hold the tensioner pulley and torque wrenches and torque all to specs check the tensioner measurement and had 4.2mm cranked the engine over by hand over 20 times rechecked timing marks and measurements, all were good and in spec.
I will pull the passenger side timing cover off and check for slack and wobble this weekend.
1. I will perform Lash Adjuster diagnostics as described in the attached FSM section.
2. I will perform VLA bleeding procedure per FSM (you need to do it on warm engine and you may need to repeat it 10-30 times);
3. I will change back to 5x30 oil and perform VLA bleeding procedure (Should I use synthetic or regular 5W30?)
4. I will check the oil pump pressure, especially at idle (Where is the best access to do this? at the oil pressure sending unit near the oil filter?).
Thank you for your help.
Steve
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,045
From: Washington State
Hey Steve,
your info is very helpful. If the noise not confined to the front of the engine, then you are much more likely dealing with the lifter noise. Your timing belt tensioning procedure is exactly how it needs to be done. I think we can eliminate timing belt slap (tensioner not working) at this time. Since you had new lifters installed, the only possibility I can imagine, is that they were not fully primed from the start and may have an air bubbles in them, thus resulting in the noise. Performing VLA bleed procedure (50 times if needed...) should take care of it.
Focus on performing bleed procedure. Pay attention to the graph of the RPM for the bleed procedure. You want gradual increase up to 3k then fast drop to idle. Repeat, repeat, repeat... You need to have that wave form for RPM to get oil forced into lifters and to flush air out. The oil is coming to the lifters via the camshaft and the rockers, then down into the lifters. You got to get enough oil flow to flush out the air which will tend to stay in the upper part of the lifter. It is my understanding that you need that pulsing motion in the oil pressure to fully flush oil through the lifters.
Did you have a chance to confirm that the noise is worse then engine just starts? Have you tried driving the vehicle any distance and see if the noise returns? Try these things first, then possibly go for an oil change and pressure test. I believe there is an oil pressure test port near oil filter (by the oil pressure switch). Unfortunately it is very tight quarters to work in there
You can use ether synthetic or conventional 5x30 oil. I've used both in my '01 Montero without issues. I started with conventional at first, then switched to synthetic. But it always was 5x30.
Best of luck.
your info is very helpful. If the noise not confined to the front of the engine, then you are much more likely dealing with the lifter noise. Your timing belt tensioning procedure is exactly how it needs to be done. I think we can eliminate timing belt slap (tensioner not working) at this time. Since you had new lifters installed, the only possibility I can imagine, is that they were not fully primed from the start and may have an air bubbles in them, thus resulting in the noise. Performing VLA bleed procedure (50 times if needed...) should take care of it.
Focus on performing bleed procedure. Pay attention to the graph of the RPM for the bleed procedure. You want gradual increase up to 3k then fast drop to idle. Repeat, repeat, repeat... You need to have that wave form for RPM to get oil forced into lifters and to flush air out. The oil is coming to the lifters via the camshaft and the rockers, then down into the lifters. You got to get enough oil flow to flush out the air which will tend to stay in the upper part of the lifter. It is my understanding that you need that pulsing motion in the oil pressure to fully flush oil through the lifters.
Did you have a chance to confirm that the noise is worse then engine just starts? Have you tried driving the vehicle any distance and see if the noise returns? Try these things first, then possibly go for an oil change and pressure test. I believe there is an oil pressure test port near oil filter (by the oil pressure switch). Unfortunately it is very tight quarters to work in there
You can use ether synthetic or conventional 5x30 oil. I've used both in my '01 Montero without issues. I started with conventional at first, then switched to synthetic. But it always was 5x30.
Best of luck.
Thread Starter
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 27
HunterD,
I did listen to the engine yesterday with a long pry bar screwdriver. I heard noise from the valve covers and the top of the water pump area so now I am second-guessing myself. I think I will change the oil back to 5W30 then do the bleeding process. If that doesn't make a change I will go back in and check the tensioner as on my engine you have to remove the accessory plate to get the cam gear covers off. I don't think the machine shop pre-lube or bled the lifters so they could have plenty of air in them to start. I also had a few issues with them in general. needless to say, I would never go back that machine shop for work.
Thanks for the help I will keep you posted.
Steve
I did listen to the engine yesterday with a long pry bar screwdriver. I heard noise from the valve covers and the top of the water pump area so now I am second-guessing myself. I think I will change the oil back to 5W30 then do the bleeding process. If that doesn't make a change I will go back in and check the tensioner as on my engine you have to remove the accessory plate to get the cam gear covers off. I don't think the machine shop pre-lube or bled the lifters so they could have plenty of air in them to start. I also had a few issues with them in general. needless to say, I would never go back that machine shop for work.
Thanks for the help I will keep you posted.
Steve
