Coolant Leak / Overheat / No Start
 

Hey guys, I just purchased a 1998 Montero Sport LS V6 and while driving it home on the highway I started losing power and so I pulled over and smoke started pouring out from under the hood and there was coolant EVERYWHERE.

Called AAA to tow it and just got home.

What are some things I should look at to find the leak? Are there are any common coolant problems with these?

I figured I'd start with replacing both hoses.

#1 - How do I know if it's the radiator or not?
#2 - How do I know if it's the head gasket?
#3 - Should I replace thermostat too?

Trying to figure out the best way to find the leak without running the car and blowing the motor..

Thanks,
David

If you did not fry the engine, you can refill the cooling system with water and run it. Once engine warms up, pressure in the cooing system should build up and once coolant starts circulating through the radiator you should be able to see where the hole is. By what you describe - you have a significant leak and this should show it readily. In fact it is possible that you will see the leaking spot just when you refill the cooling system with water. I keep saying to use water because once you find the leak you will most likely have to drain all or most of the coolant out. Save money and environment by using water until you know the system is all buttoned up.

Thanks for the response! I really appreciate the help.

If was planning on draining and re-filling with all new coolant once everything is fixed..

#1 - If i use water to test the system/find the leak how do I make sure ALL the water is out before adding new coolant? Or does it not really matter.

#2 - Do I refill from the radiator cap hole or through the reservoir? How much should I pour in?

It is likely that you still have some coolant in the system. If you refill with water you drop concentration from 50/50 to say 30/70 of coolant to water. Once you are done testing and replacing hoses you can "gestimate" how much fluid you've lost and refill the system with straight antifreeze. This will bring the coolant dilution back to near 50/50 level. After you run the car for few days (to let the coolant cycle through the system and expansion tank) you can test it with one of the cheep coolant testers to see if you have good boil over and freeze protection. If its too weak - drain some and add more straight antifreeze.

One important thing to pay attention to on current Montero engines and likely on the older ones is to properly bleed the air out of the system. I do not know how the '98 engine is setup, but look for a bleeder screw near the thermostat. You need to open it up to let the air escape, otherwise you will not get proper fluid circulation. It would help if you can find a manual online to read how to properly bleed the system.

UPDATE:

So I let the car sit over night and didn't touch it until this evening.
When I opened the hood I noticed the coolant reservoir was still at the full line... even after spraying everywhere. So I am assuming the system had TOO much coolant (obviously) and maybe it just sprayed out of the overflow hose onto of the reservoir. I am not 100% positive about this though.

So I attempted to start the car and it will not start... The motor attempts
to turn over and makes the pulleys/belt turn but it will not start.. I tried jumping it and still nothing.

I do not THINK the motor is seized completely.. because it tries to turn over but obviously something is preventing it from not starting.

What could be causing this and how do I start narrowing down problems?

Or is there a way to tell if the motor is shot?

Sounds like it probably isn't seized or all that stuff wouldn't be turning... I've never tried but I am pretty sure it takes a while to actually seize an engine with a cooling system problem, you can however easily fry a head gasket.. I've done it before.

Did you notice where the temp gauge was when the coolant came out? Was it only running briefly when this happened?

It's either fuel, spark or compression that's causing it to not start since you said you are cranking.

Are you equipped/capable to check those things?

If you have a scanner I'd check to see if it set any codes, that might give you some insight...

Do you at the very least hear the fuel pump (buzzing or humming from back of car) come on when you turn the key to run? You do have fuel left in the tank right??

Did not notice the temp gauge.. unfortunately. No idea if the gauge was even working or not.

There are no CEL's on the dash or any warning lights for that matter.

I do not have the tools or know how to check compression or spark, I am rather mechanically inclined and have worked on many cars (even rebuilt a mercedes transmission valve body) but do not know about compression testing/spark etc.

I will check to see if the fuel pump is buzzing and report back as well as check the oil.

In the mean time any more ideas or suggestions are welcome!

Have you started it since this blow out or is this the first attempt to start?

Could also check for blown fuses under the hood while your in there poking around.. Only takes a few minutes however unlikely under the circumstances it can't hurt to check and stranger things have happened.

Sounds like you can probably do the tests if you want to grab some tools I've seen others do them but never had the need myself.. It looks fairly straightforward.

If it did get really really toasty it's possible you cooked the head gasket which could possibly stop it from ever achieving the right air/fuel mixture to fire up...A compression test would tell you that pretty quick.

Guyfromhe is correct - when you have crank-no-start condition, most likely culprits are spark, fuel, compression (timing). Check fuzes, see if you have spark, then fuel. Work your way down the line methodically. I'd advice testing components instead of throwing parts at it blindly. Make sure to do some searching on this forum. There might be a thread describing similar situation and it may point you in the right direction faster.

I doubt a blown head gasket is a culprit in engine not starting. If you have a blown head gasket, you'll get lack of power, overheating and perhaps rough idle. But not starting? Not so sure about that one. Your engine will start and run with 4 out of 6 cylinders working.

I've never seen a head gasket cause a no start myself but I was trying to find something that correlates to an overheating condition...

Good morning guys, and man is it going to be a long day for me!

#1 - Had someone turn the key to accessory and I did not hear the fuel pump humming/making a noise.. I did hear a click sort of noise but I'm not sure if it was the fuel pump or not. Anyone know which fuse controls the fuel pump or another way to test the fuel pump??

Secondly, I pulled the oil dipstick and I do not THINK the oil has coolant in it although i am not positive.. I will let you guys be the judge of that.. It looks really dark and smells burnt.

http://i62.tinypic.com/10fsz7k.jpg

#2 - Do you guys think I should drop the oil pan to confirm no coolant?

#3 - I bought an inline spark plug ignition tester tool this morning, but I now see I have to remove the entire manifold just to access
the spark plugs.. Is there another way for me to test spark? Or should I just pull the manifold and replace all the plugs anyways?
What is the oem type/part number for the spark plugs?

#4 - I also rented a compression tester tool.. so I guess I need to remove the manifold anyways in order to access the plug chambers..
Do I need to disable the fuel injectors somehow before cranking the car with no plugs in it?

Anymore ideas?

Did they turn it to ACC (the first position) or to RUN (the one right before start where your climate control system comes on and your power windows are energized)? The fuel pump doesn't run in accessory mode, basically just the radio does.. You need to turn it to the position it would be in after you release it from start and then listen for the pump.

There are some relays that energize in ACC so that's probably what the clicking was..

There should be a plastic box under the hood where all the main fuses and relays live near the battery. There should be a chart of what runs what on the back side of that cover.

The best way to check the fuel pump/system is with a fuel pressure gauge.. You connect it to the fuel rail and it should tell you if it's creating enough pressure.

The spark tester is probably the cheapest thing to get and easiest to test (I think you just have to hook up where the spark plugs connect and ground it.

That should at least confirm the the coils are working and the ECU is sending the spark signal to the engine.

Then you can do fuel and compression test... You might be able to rent or borrow those tools from a local auto parts store rather than buying them for a single use.

From the picture the oil looks alright to me.. I'd expect it to be more milky if it had coolant in it..

UPDATE:

#1 - I turned the key to RUN as mentioned above, and did not hear the fuel pump humming or buzzing as most cars do.. Maybe it's just too quiet on this car? Should I be able to easily hear it?

The fuel pump not making any noise bothers me. I am confused as to how it could possibly be not working, when I started the car numerous times when I went to purchase it and then drove the car about 60 miles home with no issues.. (until it overheated and annihilated itself that is! ha).

#2 - In order to use the In-Line spark plug tester tool I have to be able to access the plugs. So I have to remove the manifold and all that junk as you guys may already know.

Since I am removing all of that anyways, I ordered new plugs and new wires (NGK wires and NGK Iridium plugs). I also ordered new valve cover gaskets, intake manifold gaskets and also the rubber boot seals for the plug wells... Figured I would do it all while I am in there anyways!

#3 - I will also be doing a compression test with the tool that I rented, but like the plugs I need access to the spark plug wells in order to attach the compression test tool.. My question is, will I be able to crank the motor (in order to read the compression tester gauge) even with the intake manifold and the throttle cable and all that junk disconnected?

So I will be waiting for the parts to arrive hopefully next week and will report back after I do the plugs and wires.

Wow I just noticed it's a 98.. I thought it was a much newer vintage... OK that takes a ton of electronic things out of the picture. I haven't driven anything that old in a long time :P

The fuel pump hum should be pretty obvious when in RUN.. It should come on for a few seconds as soon as you click it there and then turn itself off within a few seconds..

I can hear my '10 Outlanders pump from the drivers seat easily...I don't think it would be so quite you could not hear it with the engine off.

Before you start ripping out plugs I would find the under hood fuse and relay center and check if there is a fuel pump fuse and make sure it's good, then you should be able to find the fuel pump relay. Make sure it clicks on when you turn the car to RUN.

If you have another relay with the same pins/markings/specs in there powering something less important (like a window defroster or headlights or horn) try swapping them and see if the car will start.

If you aren't hearing the fuel pump I would put my money on lack of fuel causing your no start condition.

I can't understand how this would tie in with overheating.. Unless it somehow shorted something or the heat wrecked a relay or something?? Hopefully it's not the pump itself.

It won't hurt to change out the plugs and wires anyway, might make it run better may as well check your air filter while your in there too if you haven't already.

As for #3 yeah I can't see what would stop you... The cranking is electric (battery to electric starter motor) and since the plugs are out it's not going to be able to fire up. It will probably suck some air in just make sure you don't do it in a dust storm or with anything that could get sucked into the intake. The throttle cable won't matter either as the car can't start so the position of the throttle can be closed.

Look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfYarHqS1EQ It should be the same vintage and give you an idea what you are looking for (though that one is apparently making a noise it isn't supposed to be) you should hear something there though.

You may as well check your compression while you're doing the tune up just to make sure the engine/seals are in good shape since you already have the tool.

Here is one scenario I just thought of, maybe someone more mechanical can vet it.. I'm more of an electronics guy :P
Fuel pump is on it's way out from the get go, pressure is lower than it should be, engine starved for fuel (running lean) this can cause excessive heating of the engine and over a long period at high speed could cause an overheating condition and when you finally lost power it conked out... Overheating would be a little milder and wouldn't necessarily cause permanent damage...
At the very least you can give me points for creativity :P

Thank you for all the great information and help, I really do appreciate your time as this is a huge pain and I just spent $1,500 on a car that is a giant pile of scrap metal in my garage right now.

I checked the fuse pump again, I had my fiancé turn the key to RUN while I was laying under the car and I heard a VERY brief (maybe 1 to 2 seconds long) "BZZZT" sort of buzz noise.. So I guess it is safe to say that the fuel pump is NOT the problem.. I am used to most cars having loud fuel pumps that buzz for maybe 5-10 seconds but maybe the 1998's just have quiet/short fuel pumps.

I also tried swapping the fuel pump relays around in the passenger side kick panel and the car still would not start so I guess fuel is officially eliminated as a problem. (hopefully......)

I guess now I will just wait for the spark plugs and wires to arrive and see if I can get it to start once those things are installed.

That seems like a really short run time for that pump to run.. does it stay running if you are actually cranking it?

Also do you hear/feel the relay click ON when you turn it to run and then back off 2 seconds later?

I noticed in that video where the guy turned the key to run but did not start the car the pump kept running the whole time.. You can try jumping the fuel pump on at the relay (connect the two load pins together with a small jumper) and then try cranking the engine and see if it starts.

You can't say for sure fuel isn't the problem yet however..Even if the pump is energizing it could have a clogged filter or it might not be "running on all cylinders" so to speak.. You need to check the actual fuel pressure to make sure you actually are getting fuel to the fuel rails at the engine and that it's at a high enough pressure for the injectors to do their thing...

If you know how to you can try taking off the fuel feed in the engine and turn it to RUN and see if it comes out or not that won't tell you if it's got enough pressure but it will tell you for sure that is is flowing from the tank. Just don't get it all over :P

It's also possible the computer may not be commanding the injectors to fire but let's not go there yet....

Also:
I don't know if this applies to your year but it looks like there is a "multi port fuel injection" relay in there too, did you check that one too.. If that's out it won't start either.

I wouldn't rule out the fuel just yet. 1 or 2 seconds priming time is too short, plus you can't tell how well it works just by the sound. It can be turning but not putting out any fuel. I like the idea of bypassing fuel pump relay and to test the pump. It is a good test and you can't build too much pressure in the system since the excess pressure would be relived via pressure regulator back to the tank. I do not know if it is possible on a '98 to plug a fuel pressure gauge somewhere around the fuel filter (before and after). Once you energize the pump you can see if you are getting fuel to the engine.

As far as testing spark - can you rig the tester to connect directly to the coil and then plug a spare spark plug and ground it on the engine? Alternatively, you can rig the tester to go between the coil and the wire on the coil side instead of the spark plug side.

Burnt smell of oil and black color is not an indicator of anything. If you are really concerned about possibility of coolant mixing in the oil, do the following test: heat up an empty tuna can the stove and drop couple of drops of oil from the dipstick onto the hot can. If you get sizzling and bubbling - you've got coolant mixed with oil. If you just get oil sitting there and smoking slowly - you are golden.

That's what I meant by not firing on all cylinders.. The pump is turning but not actually moving fuel. Glad you agree with my Hunter, half the time I wonder if I'm just talking out my ass :P

That's a neat trick with the oil, I'll have to add that to my bag of tricks... Does it have to be a tuna can, I hate fish :P

It's hard to mistake water in oil...

http://oi59.tinypic.com/vxdhfc.jpg

It doesn't even has to be a can - a frying pan will do, but your dinner will have a 5x30 flavor for some time.

That's some nasty mess in the photo above. The OP's photo of the dipstick doesn't come close to this situation.

Sweet than I can save money on seasoning ;p

I just found this video about diagnosing crank no starts... He seems to know what he's talking about and goes into pretty good detail on his tests if you have some time to watch:

Matt's videos are AWESOME!!! Totally recommend watching his entire channel. Big fan :)

He just came up on my recommended by Youtube and he seemed fairly entertaining and educational so I subscribed... I've never seen him before but since the video was quite relevant to this topic I figured I'd post it.

Highly recommend watching his other videos. Some of them are kind of long, but he does very good job explaining how the "magic" box (PCM) and the various sensors work together. Makes working on the fuel injected cars much easier. The trick with the oil/coolant mix test on a hot place (tuna can) is from one of his videos ;)

I have been watching them..I like scannerdanner too but his detail level is a little trying since he's explaining stuff I already know..

The PCMs aren't magic boxes to me, I understand how all that works it's the mechanical stuff that amazes and confuses me...

I get the basics of internal combustion and listen and watch a lot of how to stuff so I have the concepts but I don't actually turn wrenches :p

Thanks for all of the comments guys, sorry I did not get back sooner.

I will be doing the plugs and wires tomorrow, and will be replacing the intake manifold gaskets and valve cover gaskets while I have everything apart...

I will also be doing a compression test while I have things apart but I am not sure what kind of pressure numbers I should be looking for from each cylinder? Does anyone know what good and bad numbers are?

I will also try the oil trick and report back tomorrow evening!

I am still not sure how to test the fuel pump, I am not very knowledgeable about the fuel system and don't know how or even where to connect a gauge.

If it's a 3.0L engine look here: Part 1 -How to Test Engine Compression (3.0L Mitsubishi)

The service manual should have the actual specifications listed for your car as well.

I would imagine if compression was the problem stopping it from starting at all the numbers would be obviously low or out of whack in some way... You can post the results for some opinions if you can't find he specs.


Not all cars have it but if you look around the fuel rails inside the engine bay there may be a schrader valve you can hook onto. If you don't have that you may need to get an adapter to hook into the fuel system. Again these specs should be in the service manual as well. If it's extremely low there is a problem though...

If you do find this valve you can give it a poke with a small tool and see if fuel squirts out after cranking for a few seconds.
That will at least confirm fuel in the engine bay and if it dribbles or shoots out will give you an idea about the kind of pressure it's under. Obviously don't do this with a hot engine or around any source of ignition.

One more super quick and easy test... Does giving it like 1/4 throttle while attempting to start do anything?

I do not believe any Moneros come with schaider valve. It is common on US vehicles but not on Japanese ones. If you do find one, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND AGAINST poking fuel rail schaider valve with anything. It will not give you any useful information besides the confirmation that there is SOME fuel in the system. You can have 5 PSI pressure and it will squirt fuel every where. The nominal pressure is somewhere near 30-40 PSI, but you will not be able to tell 5 PSI from 30 with this test. If you do not have a tool for the job - do not do it.

Hey guys, so after 1 zillion bolts and disconnecting tons of hoses and electronic connectors I finally got the plenum up off the motor.

#1 - The motor looks very sludgy/grimy as well as the interior of the intake manifold.. What would this mean? Is this a very bad sign??
The globs of stuff near the hole openings is just some sealant that was used with the old gasket whenever it was replaced.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2wguqa9.jpghttp://i59.tinypic.com/x0z0wj.jpg

#2 - I need to remove both valve cover's as well to replace the valve cover gasket because it is leaking. Do I just simply remove the valve cover bolts? Or do I have to remove other stuff in order to take them off?

I will be doing the compression test this evening and will report back later tonight on my findings of the pressure from each cylinder. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

There are about 8 bolts that hold the valve covers down. If I'm not mistaken (its been awhile since i took mine off) there is a breather hose on the back side that connects both valve covers and a PCV valve on the driver side front. Once you take the bolts off, you may have to slightly persuade the covers with a rubber mallet. Sometimes the seals fuse to the cylinder head and do not want to release. I hope you have a kit containing the spark plug well seals as well. It is a common area for oil leaks.

As far as pictures - I don't think this is bad. It is an engine built in '98 with many miles on it. What you see is oil residue from the blow back. Since you are there, you can wipe some of it out. But most likely it will come back overtime. Once thing I do not like is that sloppy gasket job. That is just nasty.

BTW, when you are going to do the compression testing, make sure to disconnect those fuel injector plugs you see in the photo. This way you will not be flooding the cylinders with unburnt gasoline.

UPDATE:

I got the passenger side valve cover off, and thankfully it looks very clean inside the motor and I do not see hardly any sludge build up, at all really...
http://i61.tinypic.com/2u96bus.jpg

I did discover that the plastic shroud that covers the timing belt (and bolts to the valve cover) is cracked right in half... so I will have to order a new shroud if I can find one..

I also found that the plastic tubes that connect the wires down through the valve cover to the spark plugs, are MELTED at the bottom of the tubes and cracked off... some of the plastic is melted around the spark plug so I am not sure how I am going to get my plug socket onto the plugs but I will figure that out tomorrow... I will obviously need to order new tubes.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2uoorc4.jpg

I already have new wires, new plugs and new rubber boots for the spark plug wells (as Hunter mentioned I should order, I do already have them).

Once I get the plugs out tomorrow, and the other valve cover off I will do the compression test and report back.

The valve compartment looks beautiful. That is indeed a good news. Based on that I'd venture to guess that the bottom end is also clean and well lubricated. What you see on the spark plug tubes is likely caused by oil leaking into the plug wells. Tubes swell up from oil and overtime become very brittle. You should be able to get a long screwdriver in there and dislodge a broken off piece so that you can get the socket onto the plug. Get a new set of wires and irridium plugs and you will not have to worry about them for another 80k miles. Nice project so far :)

Thanks man, I am also very happy to see how clean it is in there..

I purchased NGK wires and NGK Iridium IX plugs.

I really hope that the compression test results are good and not really low numbers.. I hope that I can get this car running again and not have to throw tons of parts at it.. One step at a time I guess!

And then once I get the car running again and put back together I have to go back to the coolant problem of it spraying everywhere (from where I don't know) and the overheating issue...

Should I even bother putting the valve covers back on in order to do the compression test or should I just focus on removing the parts that are necessary in order to get to the timing belt to see if it is broken or not?

Because even if I put the valve covers back on, the motor will be cold during the compression test so I will get altered numbers which may throw things off anyways.

You run compression test on cold engine, so don't worry about that. I'd re-assemble the valve covers so that you don't get any oil spray from any oil galleys on the camshaft and lifters. This also prevents "accidental" dropping of any tools onto the lifters and camshaft.

Also, don't forget to do a "dry" compression test first and then follow up with "wet" compression test. A wet compression test is when you pour a teaspoon of engine oil into the spark plug well and then run a compression test again. This eliminates the blow by through the rings and gives a good picture of what's going on at the top end of the engine i.e. if you have a leak through valves. You suppose to compare dry and wet results and if your difference is small and uniform across all cylinders - you are good.

From what I have read you are supposed to do the compression test on a warm engine (according to this link Part 1 -How to Test Engine Compression (3.0L Mitsubishi)).

My other problem Is the dang bottom of the spark plug boots are still broken off on the spark plugs so I am having trouble getting the plugs out.
So far I have two plugs out and the spark plug wells were FULL of oil... dripping off the plug and socket.. Maybe that's why it couldn't start, it was flooded with oil??

I think It's too late to do the compression test anyways, I wasnt thinking and took the radiator, fan, and belts off (belts were shot anyways and cracking).

Let's say my compression test results were bad.. This would basically mean that my timing belt is broken right? Or that the motor itself is blown, or the head gasket is blown.. but we have eliminated the head gasket being blown because there is no signs of coolant in my oil and the motor itself is not blown because it still was cranking.. so that could only leave my timing belt/water pump correct?

And let's say the timing belt is my problem, what If damage occurred from the motor running as the belt snapped? Seeing as I was driving on the highway when suddenly it started overheating and coolant spraying and then the motor wouldn't accelerate anymore. The engine could be shot. I could spend all the money on the belt and water pump etc and get everything back together and the motor could have internal damage....

I am just very confused and don't know what to do at this point. I paid $1,600 for the car and now It may be scrap metal... I can't afford to put a new motor in it.

If it doesn't start you can't get it warm... If it's that bad that it won't start your results will probably be dramatic rather than borderline.

If you fail the compression test that means air is escaping.. It could be anything from a gasket to the block being cracked... Not having coolant mixed in doesn't guarantee good compression.

I guess it's possible it could be stopping the plug from sparking... Not sure though.

If it's an interference engine and your belt broke you could have damaged the valves and or pistons if it's not it would just stop running...

There's bearings and other things inside the engine that could have been damaged but I don't think that usually happens unless you run it out of oil.

Well I can see the timing belt from the back with the valve cover removed.. and it appears to have tension. I pushed on it with a screwdriver and tried to pry it up a little bit and it did not budge... so maybe the belt is NOT broken?

http://i57.tinypic.com/vqk2rq.jpg


So I guess in this case, I will put everything back together with new plugs and wires and new valve cover, intake manifold and spark plug well gaskets and then see if it will start?

I guess there is no point in ripping all the pulleys and stuff off to get to the tensioner if I can see that there is still tension. Right?

I'm not sure what the coolant problem is though, and why it sprayed everywhere in the first place. I guess I will replace the radiator since I already have it out, and put a new thermostat in as well right?

If the water pump is bad, it would have siezed and snapped the belt... I don't know. :confused:

Bad/poor compression simply means the gasses on the power stroke escape out of the cylinder without producing work. That usually happens when the rings are very worn out or a valve is not seating properly. Don't worry about it ahead of time. Honestly, I think you jumped to compression testing too soon. Since you are now set to do it - do so and then work on other systems.

You can't tell if timing belt is properly tensioned by looking at it or by trying to push on it. The belt in the photo looks OK, except that it seem to be a bit glazed on the flat (upper part). I do not know if the water pump on your truck is driven by the timing belt or a separate accessory belt. On the newer models timing belt drives the water pump.

Getting the broken off boot out of the plug well is going to be tough. Get a good long, thin screwdriver and start poking between the spark plug and the valve cover. Hopefully you can break off little pieces of the boot that are stuck down there and get them removed. Oil in the wells could reduce efficiency of the spark but I don't think it would kill your engine all together.